Doug's Railroad Shop

Design Philosophy and history

Created 09-27-2009

Updates on the model locomotives I am designing. These are not yet ready for production.

PRR DD1.

PRR E3B-E2C.

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Added 09-27-2009

Re: POSSIBLE sales quantities for E44, E2B, E2C, E3B, DD1

Hi Stewart,

> 1. Price for 50's experimental in pairs, i.e., one powered and one dummy?

I had not considered one powered and one dummy. Let's say 1.5 times the price
for a single powered unit.

E2B - target price $225 for one unit.
E2B - target price $325 for one powered and one dummy unit.
E3B - target price $275-300 for one unit.
E3B - target price $380-420 for one powered and one dummy unit.
E2C - target price $225 for one unit.
E2C - target price $325 for one powered and one dummy unit.

> 2. Will the motor be a modern can motor?
> 3. Any provision for DCC if DCC not included?
> 4. Lighted?

Last night I chose the drive mechanisms. For the B trucked models, I'll use Bowser/Stewart trucks. So far, it is less expensive to get working chassis than order separate parts - fully working chassis with motor and DCC board is about 50% of the individual piece price and the parts still need to be assembled.

So the E3B and E2B will have proven a drive train design by Stewart, lights, DCC board, and the Stewart can motor. These parts will be ID'ed and you will be able to purchase them directly from Bowser if needed. The pans will be from Bachmann E33's.

The E2C will have proven a drive train design by Bachmann for the same reason I chose Stewart for the E3B and E2B. These trucks (both B and C) are close but not 100% correct for the models. If the demand is there, I'll look into providing an upgrade kit to the correct trucks.

Again the E3C will have the Bachmann E33 motor, trucks, lights, DCC board, and the Bachmann can motor. These parts will be ID'ed and you will be able to purchase them directly from Bowser if needed. The pans will be from Bachmann E33's.

To reinforce, these are target retail prices, not parts costs. If the parts cost more, I'll need to alter the actual retail price. I want to make some money, but this is a hobby and I want to offer items I would personally want at an affordable price. I hope these models will provide a good beginning for super-detailers who want the highest accuracy and a reasonable likeness for people who want something to jog memories of actual experiences.

Thanks for the input.

Doug
www.dougsrrshop.com



Doug,
I note that you have not specified what scale these models are to be
available in. (...or i must have missed it.) I would think HO from
your mention of the Bachmann E33, but the radii you list for the E3B
doesn't seem to quite match that.

If these are O or N, i'd have definite interest. HO, probably not.

Thanks!
--Drew McCann


Hi Drew,

These are HO models. The mechanics of the E3B without a drive train does allow a mathematical 13.08" minimum radius. If you have seen 4-truck heavy duty flat cars where the trucks do not stay on the centerline of the car, I have something like that. I worked out a mechanism to allow lateral motion for two of the three trucks to get it to go around a curve.

I looked at the O scale model potential and felt that the PRR electrics were well covered there and I did not need to compete with proven designs. If there are some that are overlooked, please feel free to let me know. I'll look into it. I am considering a 7.5" gauge or a 12" gauge DD1 for live steam for myself.

As for the N scale models, except for the GG1s, there is nothing. I saw an N scale DD1 brass offered and that was it. I will want to get the HO line going first before I try N scale.

Thanks for the input and I hope I've answered your questions.

Doug vV


may add to comments on web site:

Hi Joe,

Since I'm trying something new, I halted the E-44 in favor of the smaller B1 "Rat". It is easier to try something new on a small scale (no pun untended) and the Rat was smallest of the classes.

I found the B1 had more things (like casting outside side frames), I would have to learn than I felt comfortable with so the next smallest was the DD1 (sort of like two B1s in one). As I've worked out my process and had to wait on different items for the DD1, I started playing with the experimentals. That is why I have three models ready for body manufacturing design.

Once I get the manufacturing machine up and running, I will start work on the body of the DD1. Once it is done, the plans for the experimental bodies and the E44 have the design plans about 85% complete and should not be too far off before release.

Specifically for the E44, the deck of the E33 is not correct for the E44 (i.e. 3 steps vs 4). However, I do not plan on manufacturing the E44 deck initially. I have no experience in casting something this small. Building up the deck from brass parts is not a quick method so I am planning to offer only the body itself to start with. It will attach to the E33 deck. If sales are high enough and demand high enough, I will revisit the E44 deck.


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Doug I currently have 9 Alco E44's. 7 have been repowered with Stewart drives from their big Alco's. Non correct sideframes but it got me good running rectifiers. The last two have been Bachman /Alco hybrids. First one used only the Bachman frame modified to fit the Alco body and that worked well. the last one still a work in progress will use the Bachman underframe and walkway with the alco upper body. Both require removal of frame weight but not that bad. As you mentioned the only difference between the two in walkways is the number of steps. For a complete unit you Will sell them out at $150.
---------------------- Ken McCorry

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Hi Andy,

Thanks for the good suggestions.

I have not settled on two or three powered trucks. However until recently, I was leaning towards two. I would have to make serious alterations to the Athearn middle truck for it to be unpowered and have room for a larger motor. That's another reason I lean to the Stewart truck.

Due to the shape of the worm gear retaining clip used by both Athearn and Stewart, I think that a single drive shaft for all three is very much workable in two different ways.

I'm reluctant to say about details of the changes at the moment.

I found a can motor that would allow powering all three trucks. Instead of one motor for the electric, there could be two (like happens in O scale sometimes).

I just need to work it out and see if it is practical and better than one larger motor.

The photo on my web site shows the Athearn S12 truck. I have a Stewart DS-4-4-1000 chassis and their power truck has a smaller profile that allows more room in the body for the motor(s) and weight. I might be able to mount the Stewart motor on its side above the center truck.

As a side comment, the E2B has skirting between the trucks so the frame can be lowered there to allow for a standard Stewart can motor. It will be about as strong as the Stewart model diesels unless I can not place as much weight in it.

I contacted NWSL about gear and worm gear for the DD1 and was basically told that powering both drivers was not the best way to go. This was despite my having already said that the gears just happened to be on the driver axles and I had not intention of using them. I had previously told them I wanted to power the DD1 through the motor axle in the cab of the DD1. I believe he did not know what I was talking about since his response (via email) was talking about a cab forward. He wanted to put some sort of slide mechanism for the rods going into the cab instead of a geared drive axle.

Does anyone have suggestions for alternate gear and worm suppliers?

As for the motor for the DD1, I have purchased a pair of DC71 motors for possible use. I was assuming I'd use two motors - one in each half. I am now considering one larger motor in one half and allow room in the other half for end users to place DCC and/or sound boards. Until I can start an engineering prototype, I will not be able to work out the best method.

For DCC, I am planning as much as possible for DCC installation. Items such as insulated drivers and motor brushes not electrically connected to the frame.

I had two Far East Distributor's Spartan series 4-4-0s in HOn3 and never could get enough weight over the drivers. I am considering this experience on the DD1s.

From live steam, the need for the front truck to help guide the mechanism into the curves is well understood. I want to try to add this to the DD1 without getting into true equalization.

FYI, I have always enjoyed solving engineering problems. These models are frustrating at times but very enjoyable for problem solving.

Thanks for the input.

Doug vV
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October 10, 2009 10:45PM

Hi Michael,

I have been watching the PRR electrics for about 3-4 years. I have seen what the modelers want through their annual polls for models they wish for. I have been tracking eBay prices for those models. Between the two, I have selected several models of electric motors for producing (definitely not the GG1). Decisions based on tooling costs and so forth have been examined and I think the models I have chosen should come in at about 65% of the used brass market and a few are in the more than 50% below the brass market.

At the same time, I've been looking at the old AHM/ROCO HOn30 industrial equipment and see the 0-4-0ts and diesels going for $100+ range. I think I can produce something similar at a lower list price.

What first got me interested in trying to produce something in about 2003-2004 was the T-12 and the K-27. I would like to have 15 K-27s => one for each number in the class. It got me to put my experience in Live Steam and in electronics manufacturing and design int the problem of 15 K27s.

I am not ready to build 100s of models in a single run by myself (like you said, I'm a cottage industry). I am looking for 10-50 in a single run.

Using my background in many areas, I think I can provide good models (not craftsman super detailed models) for a reasonable price. This may include something like omitting DCC PCBs and connectors that increase the price of a locomotive by $20-40 per unit in every model when those who like DC do not want the extra expense (this option has not been decided on - I am learning how to make simpler DC models first).

The first model is a PRR DD1 3-rd rail electric. It was chosen for smallness and simplicity (it has side rods and no valve gear). I am also working on the PRR E2B, E2C, and E3B electrics. The detailed sides might be plastic or brass - I am in early stages of talking to vendors. I do not want to work with photo-chemical etching myself.

The DD1 will lead the way for me to try inside frame locos such as the T12, C-class consols, and most any other ng loco.

The outside frame electrics such as the PRR P5, O1, and B1 will lead the way to allow me to try the D&RGW outside frame mikes.

The E2B, E2c, and E3B electrics will lead the way to items such as the White Pass diesels, N4700, and other NG items that there might be a large enough demand for. The E3B and the E2C are Baldwins that have the same body and underframe, just different trucks. The E3B has three B trucks and the E2C has two C trucks (I have considered leveraging more than one model from a single design when reasonable).

So, I'm just looking for ideas and demands for locos. If I judge I can make it profitable, I'll make them.

One of my goals is to set up manufacturing such that I can make a run of, say, 25 models and when all but 3-5 remain, I'll make another run.

Thanks for your input.

Doug vV

10/12/2009 02:31PM by dougvv.

Hi Micheal,

If you want to see what I've got so far (not much is posted), visit my web site and click on the PRR DD1 or the PRR E3B-E2C links.

You will see that the E3B and E2C do not have the correct trucks. They have similar trucks from proven designs from Athearn and Bachmann. If the demand is there, I will look into producing the correct trucks.

My manufacturing idea is applicable to freight cars and passenger cars also.

So who knows where this might lead (assuming, of course, that I can get it to work in the first place grinning smiley ).

Doug vV

www.dougsrrshop.com

October 12, 2009 06:26PM

Hi,

As for correct custom made wheel sets (17 spoke drivers for PRR), It would run somewhere like $15 for each driver center and about the same for the nickel silver tire in large quantities.

The side frames are actually fairly easy by comparison. If you can make a truck like the Athearn SW7/SW1500 chassis with inside bearings and super glue the plastic side frame on the outside, you'll be able to have a fairly easy way to simulate different truck types.

The DD1 is such a neat model, I'd love to try a 2.5" scale model (sg is 11.77" gauge - G12 is a somewhat common small park train gauge!

Since I've developed breathing problems in the past 10-12 years when the coal/diesel/kerosene/LP smoke blows in my face, I believe that live steamers are no longer workable for me. Of course, I have the front truck and frame for an RGS Motor #7 completed and two 2.5" scale 3000 series box cars.

Who knows, maybe I'll have a working dual gauge idler.

Doug vV

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